I don't understand you. I don't disrespect you, though the quite oversimplified version, that I'm about ready to post about, of what I understand an Atheist to be may seem disrespectful, but I just don't understand what you're about.
I don't pity you, or pray for you to find God, as that would demean your existence...something I don't wish to do...I just don't get it. I just went over to atheists.org to try to get an understanding of your point of view, and none of it made much sense. That is to say, I didn't get a clear picture of what an atheist is. There was a huge biography on the founder of this particular group of atheists, and there was a lot of describing themselves through what they aren't.
But defining yourselves, or summing up your belief, by saying what you aren't doesn't really help me understand you. I understand that your beliefs have been attacked by believers for a long time, but does it really help to use terms like never-never land, or theology being limited thinking? Now I don't mean to offend if this particular website doesn't represent all views of atheists, and I don't mean to lump everyone together by saying "you" when referencing the points this website makes. Perhaps atheists don't care if it helps by using those terms and wording...but I would think that a basic desire of a human is to be understood on some level, with life-style/belief-system being on the forefront of things you'd like others to understand about them.
So here's my oversimplified view of what atheists are...they believe solely in evolution, from the beginning. Now I believe that all living things evolve and adapt, but my belief is that a God initially created the solar-systems and all life in them.
My question is, do atheists seek to test their belief-system from time to time, or do they take their belief-system on faith? Do they even believe in the concept of faith? If they do, do they believe that something like having faith that their favorite sports team will win the big game can be equated to a larger form of faith?
My question is, yes I have a few, if atheists do believe in evolution, how do they believe that life began? I can only assume something like the big bang theory since they don't believe in any kind of universal creator. And if you do believe in the big bang theory, can you explain what happened after the big bang? How did life in it's simplist form decide that it needed to procreate if someone or something didn't ingrain that into their structure?
Again, perhaps Atheists don't care about such things. Perhaps they have their belief, they think it's right, and they never question why they think that. I know that I've questioned my beliefs often, but I keep coming back to the Lord. I see to many little miracles that can't all be explained as coincidences...and I keep coming back to the notion that someone, something, somewhere had to program organisms with the desire to reproduce...something a big bang couldn't thrust upon any organism.
So if you don't care what others think of your belief system, please don't take my search for knowledge as any kind of mockery. If you do wish to let others know about the belief of atheism, by all means, share. I vow that I won't allow bashing...just sharing of beliefs and explaining of why one believes that way.
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I would love to answer this for you. As a former theology student to a devote atheist it would be my pleasure.
I know this is a very sensitive subject and any indication to the contrary is unintentional.
For one the term Atheist should not really need to exist. As Sam Harris said,
"Atheism is a term that should not even exist. No one needs to identify themselves as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. We do not have words for people who doubt Elvis is still alive or that aliens have transversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs."
1.) I test my belief system everyday.
2.)The start of the universe is a good question, where I differ from the religious crowd is that while I don't know the specifics yet of what exactly happened after the big bang or if there was a big bang I believe that there is a scientific explanation for it. Just because we don't understand it at the moment doesn't mean an explanation isn't there...Just like 2000 years ago we didn't understand epilepsy and attributed it to demon possession. Right now I believe we don't understand the origins of the universe and are attributing it to God.
I have tons of posts devoted to the subject and I would be happy to answer any questions that you do have.
P.S
Here is my email for more discussion I travel quite a bit so sometimes it takes me a few days to respond. brianinmpls@gmail.com
And here is a post that I wrote sometime back about my walk from faith to Reason.
http://brianinmpls.blogspot.com/2006/01/walk-of-faith-to-foot-steps-of-reason.html
At the bottom of this post is a link for some color on what makes a belief acceptable to me.
I see Brian beat me to it.
Hey, I am always up for a civil discussion on this topic. ;o)
An Atheist is someone that has decided that because there is no empirical evidence that a God exists, that a God does not exist. It is unfortunate that we have to label ourselves because we really shouldn’t have to in the same sense that people who believe that racism is wrong don’t have to claim themselves and non-racists or people don’t’ have to claim themselves as non-astrologers. I am sure you do not go around claiming that you are a non-believer of Zeus or Archimedes. But in order to create community around non-believers, the name is a necessary evil.
“…they believe solely in evolution, from the beginning.”
--- In general, I would guess that the vast majority of Atheists most likely believe in evolution based on the mountains of evidence that exists. But again, Atheism is not a belief system. Atheism is a description for those that lack any “god” belief.
“…but my belief is that a God initially created the solar-systems and all life in them
-- I would ask, why? And I would ask who created God? The answer that God “always was and always will be” is insufficient as it is impossible to know such a thing. If this answer works then it also works for the argument from the believer’s side that the universe couldn’t have come from nothing.
“…question is, do atheists seek to test their belief-system from time to time, or do they take their belief-system on faith?”
---- Again, Atheism is the lack of belief; it is not a belief system. I like most other Atheists would LOVE to be provided empirical extraordinary evidence that a god exists. That would be marvelous. So I would say that all Atheists are open to seeing such evidence.
“…Do they even believe in the concept of faith?”
--- Sure faith is everywhere. I have faith that the chair will stop my fall when I sit down. I have faith that my car will start when I turn the key. These things however have repeated evidence that the assumption or faith will hold. There is nothing wrong with faith as long as you understand that faith is really an educated guess or assumption that sometimes is based on previous experience. The existence of God does not have such empirical evidence; it is more of a “hope” or “guess”.
“if atheists do believe in evolution, how do they believe that life began?.... big bang….”
---- The answer is simply, “We do not know”. There exists no evidence to the origin of the universe, or how the big bang began or was created. Saying that a “god” created everything is saying absolutely nothing. It adds nothing to the true knowledge of the origins of the universe. So who created god, why did god create the universe? What is the purpose of the millions of other galaxies, stars and planets out here?
“...and I keep coming back to the notion that someone, something, somewhere had to program organisms with the desire to reproduce...something a big bang couldn't thrust upon any organism.”
------- The whole point is that there exists no evidence to say that “someone or something” HAD to program organisms etc… We are but a speck of dust in the universe. In the same light that we can not expect and ANT to understand what the internet is, we can’t expect that humans have the capability to understand what and what not the universe is, was how it was created etc…
“So if you don't care what others think of your belief system…”
-- I know I am being a broken record here, but if it is one thing you take away from this, it is that Atheism is NOT a belief system; it is the lack of belief.
In the end, I fully understand your thought process. It is certainly within the realm of possibility that there is some sort of creator or force that created the universe but…. in saying that, I also admit that there exists no empirical evidence that a force or creator of the universe does exist. It is purely a guess on my part.
I don’t know if you are purely a deist, or if you are a believer of a certain sect of a religious group. I would love to KNOW that there is a god but even if there was a god, it certainly is not one that I think does a very good job at delivering justice, peace, order, intelligence of design etc…
I’ll check back with you… Feel free to visit me again at rocketstarinmpls.blogspot.com and visit my many posts on the subject
forgot to check the "email me when" button
I haven't forgotten to check back with you guys on this. I look forward to a good discussion on this.
But I've been off from work for a couple weeks now, and realized that I didn't do some things that I wanted to, namely read some.
Of course, we did just have another child, and I did get this blog back and running pretty good, but I wanted to make sure and at least begin to read a book before heading back to work next week.
So it may be a few more days, and I definitely want to read Brian's footsteps of reason, before I jump back into this.
Thanks again for weighing in...I'll pick back up on this with you soon.
Alright, so I woke up to check on the snowfall and decided to drop a quick note to let you all know that I didn't forget about you, but then I couldn't fall back asleep, so I read Brian's Footstep of Reason post and decided to at least post some more thoughts.
So I'll start with a realization right off the bat. I don't believe I started this topic with the notion that I was going to "convert atheists", but for some reason, it "dawned" on me that most likelihood, nothing that will be said here would change my belief in God's existence.
I do have different notions than what most churches teach/believe, for example, as noted in this post and from an excerpt in Brian's Footsteps to Reason, "Since Jews, Christians, and Muslims all pray to the same god that Abraham made the Covent with what is the problem?" I think that there is one universal Creator. But I don't doubt that God exists. Then it "dawned" on me that nothing I saw will likely change Atheist's belief that there is no God. I don't know why it "dawned" on me, because as I said, I don't believe I started this topic to convert anyone, but to be understanding.
So I guess the reason for my "realization" is that I remember that it's perfectly ok for us to not change our minds during of after this discussion. The important thing is that we are getting a better understanding of other's point of view and communicating civilly.
I can see your guys reasons for not believing in God in that you have no proof that there is a God. So maybe to understand why I believe in God, it may help to know that I define faith differently than Rocketstar did. And that's not to say his definition is wrong, just different. I define faith to be a belief in something when there is no definite, or even likely, outcome.
So unlike with repeated evidence, I have faith that the Bears will win the Super Bowl next year. There's definitely no evidence to suggest that will happen, and given this season, it's even highly unlikely that it will happen, but it doesn't disuade my faith in them at all.
So to answer Why do I believe that God initially created the solar-systems and all life in them...I just do. I have faith that God exists, and I guess I fall in the category of He always was and always will be. I'm not sure I believe it's impossible to know that...we just don't know it yet. If it stands to reason, which it does, that there exists no evidence to the origin of the universe, or how the big bang began or was created, why can that same explaination not be used for the who created God?
If we can’t expect that humans have the capability to understand what and what not the universe is, was how it was created...then how can humans have the capability to understand the existence or non-existence of God. For me, that answer...going back to my definition...is faith. Yet at the same time, I understand that since there is no evidence for how the universe began...there is likewise no evidence of God. Maybe it comes down to our definitions of faith??
Here's the thing, and I may be way off on this, but both Brian and rocketstar seem to be a little more atypical from many Atheists. If I'm off, feel free to straighten me out. I'm not sure I believe that most atheists would love for there to be evidence of the existence of God. I do believe you when you say you'd love to see that evidence...but it seems, and this could be from watching the likes of Bill O'Reilly too much, that quite a few atheists not only don't believe that there isn't a God but they have much distain for those that do believe in God. You guys don't strike me that way at all, so that could be a ill-conceived notion that I have sort of bought into.
So answer me this...and this may be more of a personal belief rather than a belief of atheists...do you believe in psychics or the paranormal? I do happen to believe in those things, which I think automatically sets me aside from the same thinking of many Christians.
Some of my current beliefs come from a psychic named Sylvia Browne. I've read some of her books and of course saw her appearances on the Montel Williams talk show. That alone may open me up for criticism, but my belief that it's ok for us all to have our own personal relationship/beliefs about God came from her. So the fact that I don't believe everything that she says probably opens me up for more criticism...but it's just what my faith tells me to believe.
My guess is that you may not believe in psychics, because a lot of their reasonings come from the ability to communicate with spirits...which I think goes against your belief that there is anything beyond our current existence/life.
If that is your belief, do you have any thoughts on regression hypnosis that suggests that people have lived past lives? You couldn't have a past life without having a soul, right? And a soul would suggest that there is something out there bigger than us, such as God?
Here's what I believe...I believe that God created everyone and that everyone, after this life will be with him again. It's something that I've struggled with, because I still kinda believe in the notion that you must believe in Jesus to get to Heaven.
But I agree with Sylvia Browne that our soul's purpose is to seek as much knowledge as possible so that we can be the best we can possibly be for God, to please Him as he is our Father. With this in mind, we decide to come to Earth to learn and there are certain things we know that we want to work on ahead of time. So there is a grandiose plan, but due to our free-will and lack of rememberence of this plan, we can certainly get off course.
The part that I struggle with, is...do people decide to come to earth to be Ted Bundy, or did Ted Bundy's free-will take him off course from what he was supposed to learn? Or, was his purpose here, as heinous as it was, to teach others about pain and suffering? There's no doubt that pain and suffering teach us things...and there's no doubt that he caused plenty of it. Was that his purpose?? I haven't figured that out yet.
Ok, so now I feel like I'm rambling. The last part was more to give people an idea where I am coming from. I certainly don't fit into a traditional religious mold. Feel free to comment, question, get me back on track, force me to address something I may have missed...as this is definitely a topic I am enjoying.
“...then how can humans have the capability to understand the existence or non-existence of God. For me, that answer...going back to my definition...is faith.”
---- I agree, we do not. I hear you saying that for you it is faith, or a guess. It almost appears that you are more agnostic than anything, but fall on the “there is a god” side of the guess. Like the Bears winning the Superbowl, it is a guess.
“…but they have much distain for those that do believe in God.”
I only have disdain for those that want to push their beliefs onto others and into the government
“..do you believe in psychics or the paranormal?”
--- I believe in provable and testable physics. Some of the fringe quantum physics starts to enter the world of “guessing” in my book. The paranormal, I have yet to see concrete evidence of such, but it is not out of the realm of possibility.
“psychics”
--- No, I am not on board with psychics.
“…thoughts on regression hypnosis that suggests that people have lived past lives?”
--- Again, there is no way to tell what the brain is doing while under hypnosis. Dreams appear to be just as real as real memories, so to say that what the brain experiences while under hypnosis is any different, is purely speculation in my opinion. Just like near death experiences.
“I still kinda believe in the notion that you must believe in Jesus to get to Heaven”
---- If you do believe this, then answer me a few questions. What about those that have never even heard the word Jesus? I also did a post on this subject:
http://rocketstarinmpls.blogspot.com/2006/11/only-christians-go-to-heaven.html In 99% of the cases, people what the religion they are brought up into. If you were born in India, you would not be a Christian, would you then be going to hell for the mere fact of where you were born?
I will leave you with something Epicurus said:
Is God is willing to prevent evil but unable?
• Then he is not omnipotent
Is God able but not willing to stop evil?
• Then he is malevolent (wishing evil or harm to another or others; showing ill will; ill-disposed; malicious)
If he is both willing and able?
• Then wence come evil?
If he is neither willing nor able?
• Then why call him God?
I wouldn't call myself agnostic in the sense that I do emphatically believe that there is a God. If you mean that you consider me agnostic because I believe in something that is unknown/unproven...that it's a guess. I would also say that it's a guess that God doesn't exist. Just because something isn't proven yet, doesn't mean it isn't true, correct? Just as in the example of people not knowing of epilepsy 2000 years ago, it can now be proven that people aren't indeed possessed.
I guess I'd have to see the proof that the brain works exactly the same for dreams as it does for memories in the current life. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I couldn't find anything during a little poking around on the internet...and it doesn't seem to make sense to me. I'd more tend to believe that it could be proven that the brain works exactly the same under hypnosis as it does for dreams than I would for dreams vs. real memories. But again, I'm no scientist or brain expert, so I could be way off.
As far as believing that Jesus is the way to heaven, that's where the "kinda" comes in. Because I don't believe that people who don't have the exact same beliefs are ineligible from heaven. It's the way I was brought up...to believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven...but I now believe that nearly everyone goes to heaven after this life. The reason I say "kinda" is because I know that my personal belief in Jesus brings me closer to Him, to my family, and it brings me closer to being the type of person I want to be and that I believe I am here for.
So no, I don't believe that Muslims are going to "Hell" because they don't believe in Jesus. Perhaps I believe that subconsciously because I had a previous life where I was a practicing Muslim...or perhaps it just seems to be common sense to me. I don't believe that God would create people that could only remotely have a chance of being anything other than Muslim yet deny them back into his realm after their life on earth is finished. I know that doesn't fit in with my church's beliefs, but I don't think that makes them unfit for heaven because the majority of my church thinks that way.
I am unfamiliar with Epicurus, but I don't buy into the notion that omnipotent means anything more than all-knowing. Can God prevent evil? I believe He can. But do I believe him to be some manaical puppetmaster, no...I don't. And just because someone decides not to do something...it's extremist to say that wish for it to happen.
Parents allow their kids to get into things they shouldn't be into all the time to teach them something or to let them learn something...that DOES NOT mean they wish their kid harm or ill-will.
And while this may not be the best arguement, I believe it certainly holds water...how can you know good without evil? Sometimes you can't know something without knowing what it's not.
And is it possible to just call him God because he is our creator? Or can we only call him God if he creates the utopian society on earth? Why even create a utopian society on earth if there is a utopian society in heaven? And wouldn't utopia get boring after a while, particularly in the scope of eternity?
My belief is that there is a utopia...this place is known to us as heaven. God created our souls...he is our father, and we seek to learn all we can for him...to make him happy as well as our souls happy. From time to time, that means taking a break from the kooshy utopian life, and diving into the pit that is known as earth...in order to learn something to gain more knowledge for ourselves and God.
In the terms of eternity, that could mean a few trips to earth (or other existences in other galaxies for that matter) with a mission or two for the time we are here.
I believe we know that mission before we come here, though we forget it while we are here, and then when we die, we reflect on how well we completed that mission when we return to heaven.
For instance, perhaps you mastered spirituality in a different life, so you have no need to work on that during this life on earth, your mission is for something else. Or, perhaps your mission is to test your spirituality...to prove to yourself that there is a God...because if you say that you'd love for there to be evidence of God's existence, maybe it's your mission on earth to find that evidence...or maybe during your search you don't find evidence that's good enough for all atheists, but is definitely good enough for you...who knows.
Those are just what I believe. I personally believe it's just as admirable to require proof of God's existence as it is to simply believe with all your heart that He exists.
To me, it's really the extremists that hinder things. Conversations such as this are sublime for me. It's Christians who shun and ridicule all who don't believe exactly as they do, as well as as well as Atheists who ridicule those who can't offer emperical proof, that prevent everyone from coming together peacefully.
If you could, for my own knowledge, could you expand on your disdain for people that push their beliefs onto others. It's more your definition of "pushing beliefs onto others" that intrigues me. Are things such as "In God We Trust" on currency, or having Christmas trees or nativity scenes on public display examples of what you would consider pushing our beliefs onto you?
I don't happen to see it that way, but that's not to say I couldn't be convinced. Perhaps oddly enough, I can see "One Nation, Under God" can be an arguement of pushing beliefs onto others. I'm a little conflicted as to what a solution for that could be, but I'm understanding at least. :)
First of all, let me say that I am enjoying this little back and forth. I hope you have a great holiday Mad Hoosier.
“I would also say that it's a guess that God doesn't exist. Just because something isn't proven yet, doesn't mean it isn't true, correct?”
----- I agree, it is a guess that God does not exist, but there is no proof that a God does exist. It is also a guess that there is not a flying spaghetti monster orbiting the Sun as well. Can you prove to me that there is not a teapot orbiting the Earth? The burden on proof lies on the side that claims that something does exist, not the side that claims there is no evidence that something exists.
Glad to hear that you sway away from the “only Christians go to heaven” thought as it doesn’t hold up, I go back to my “Location, Location, Location” post.
“For instance, perhaps you mastered spirituality in a different life, so you have no need to work on that during this life on earth, your mission is for something else.”
---- Interesting. The thing about past lives for me is this. If we have past lives, what is their point if we don’t remember them, learn from them, etc…? Are we just Gods “TV” ?
“...because if you say that you'd love for there to be evidence of God's existence, maybe it's your mission on earth to find that evidence...”
--- I will definitely continue the mental search and I will always be open to the extraordinary evidence it will take.
“If you could, for my own knowledge, could you expand on your disdain for people that push their beliefs onto others.”
-- Sure see below
“Are things such as "In God We Trust" on currency or having Christmas trees or nativity scenes on public display examples of what you would consider pushing our beliefs onto you?”
--- Yes and yes.
Throughout the history of man, man has created supernatural explanations for our and the universes origin. One thing to remember is that you are also an Atheist. You are an Atheist when it comes to the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Gods that mankind has worshiped over the previous thousands and thousands of years. I assume that you do not believe in Zeus, Archimedes, Thor, Buddha, Alah, the rain god, the Egyptians gods etc… So the only difference between an Atheist and yourself is one tiny, tiny thing, the Atheist throws in one more God, Jesus, onto the pile of the other thousand gods that they don’t believe in anymore.
Here is an excerpt from a previous post: http://rocketstarinmpls.blogspot.com/2006/10/hero-score.html
There are many, many gods that human beings have worshiped throughout history that did not exist. These gods mysteriously had many, many similar characteristics. Jesus was one of the last in a long line of gods to have certain “Hero Factors” ascribed to him. If you look at the list of past gods, the similarities are overwhelming: Virgin Birth, Healed the Sick, Performed Miracles, Killed on Cross, Resurrected from the Dead, His Mother is royal virgin, Father a King, Son of a God, no knowledge of his childhood, prescribes laws, crucified on the top of hill, and the list goes on and on.
The early Pagans started to point out this fact and say, “What you say about Jesus is the same thing we and others have said about Hercules and other saviors.” The early church leaders knew this and claim that, “Yeah, but this is savior is true, and Satan counterfeited it in advance because he knew this day would come.” This remains the explanation to this day, quite a convenient answer.
Jesus’ Hero Score is 19 just above Hercules at 17 , but not quite as many as Oedipus 22 on the Hero scale. Why do people really think Jesus is any different than these other gods? Is this just pure coincidence that Jesus just happens to score 19 out of 22? There was much written about Hercules, Zeus and Oedipus etc… yet we don’t believe in those gods anymore.
So in the face of this, to promote ones religious beliefs on others when these claims can not be proven, is wrong and only breeds problems. Without religion, 9/11 would not have happened. If those young intelligent men (and they were all educated men) didn’t believe FOR SURE that they were doing Allah’s work and would be celebrated hero’s in heaven with their 72 virgins, they would not have killed themselves. You don’t see any Atheists blowing themselves up ;o)
Freedom is the distance between religion and state. I do not want believers inserting their unfounded religious beliefs unto the masses. I don’t want Jehovah’s knocking on my door because they want to tell me about their personal relationship with Jesus and that I should have one. I don’t want my child going to a public school where Intelligent Design is pawned off as science. There exists no good deed that has not been done without religion or that could not be done without religion. The only reason “In God We Trust” was added to our currency (in the 1950’s) is due to our fear of the “Godless” Soviet Union. God should have nothing to do with our currency.
Children are not born Marxists, or Democrats, or Keynesian Economists… we don’t label them as such because they have not yet had the chance to examine the evidence to decide on such matters. So why do we label them with a certain religious belief before they are able to examine the evidence and decide for themselves? We indoctrinate our children into a religion rather than allowing the evidence of a religion to hold up to the critical examination of an adult’s mature brain.
How would Christians in the society feel if Scientologists began to insert scientology into our government? I hope that people begin to understand that religion is again, as it has throughout history, going down a path of untold needless violence and destruction. Personal religion is the way religion needs to go, not organized and forceful.
I’ll stop ranting there ;o)
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